Intervist\u00eb e Jule Goikoetxea me Nancy Fraser<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Mir\u00ebdita, e dashur Nancy. Shum\u00eb faleminderit q\u00eb pranuat k\u00ebt\u00eb intervist\u00eb p\u00ebr numrin special t\u00eb Capital and Class. Ky num\u00ebr i ve\u00e7ant\u00eb p\u00ebrqendrohet n\u00eb 13 tezat feministe marksiste, t\u00eb cilat i diskutuam gjat\u00eb Konferenc\u00ebs s\u00eb Kat\u00ebrt Nd\u00ebrkomb\u00ebtare Feministe Marksiste. N\u00eb librin tuaj t\u00eb ri, Tri fytyrat e pun\u00ebs: Zbulimi i lidhjeve t\u00eb fshehura nd\u00ebrmjet gjinis\u00eb, rac\u00ebs dhe klas\u00ebs, trajtoni \u00e7\u00ebshtje si puna, lufta e klasave, prodhimi dhe riprodhimi, nd\u00ebrthurja, ndryshimet klimatike, perandoria, demokracia, feminizmi dhe antiracizmi. K\u00ebto tema ishin gjithashtu n\u00eb qend\u00ebr t\u00eb k\u00ebsaj konference.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Shum\u00eb mir\u00eb. G\u00ebzohem q\u00eb po flasim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Edhe un\u00eb g\u00ebzohem q\u00eb ju shoh p\u00ebrs\u00ebri.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Kan\u00eb kaluar shum\u00eb vite? \u00cbsht\u00eb e mrekullueshme q\u00eb po takohemi s\u00ebrish.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: T\u00eb gjith\u00eb autor\u00ebt q\u00eb do t\u00eb paraqiten n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb num\u00ebr special mor\u00ebn pjes\u00eb n\u00eb konferenc\u00eb. Artikujt e tyre trajtojn\u00eb m\u00eb thell\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00ebn se si kuptojm\u00eb pun\u00ebn, klas\u00ebn, gjinin\u00eb dhe rac\u00ebn, me q\u00ebllim zgjerimin e proceseve gjith\u00ebp\u00ebrfshir\u00ebse emancipuese. N\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb frym\u00eb, do t\u00eb doja t\u2019ju pyes disa pyetje mbi temat e konferenc\u00ebs dhe m\u00eb pas t\u00eb flasim p\u00ebr p\u00ebrmbajtjen e librit tuaj t\u00eb ri. Sigurisht. Ideja kryesore \u00ebsht\u00eb t\u00eb zgjerojm\u00eb kuptimin ton\u00eb p\u00ebr kapitalizmin, duke mos u ndalur vet\u00ebm n\u00eb kontradiktat dhe format e shtypjes q\u00eb burojn\u00eb nga dimensioni ekonomik i shoq\u00ebris\u00eb, por duke shqyrtuar edhe marr\u00ebdh\u00ebniet mes ekonomis\u00eb dhe aspekteve t\u00eb tjera t\u00eb jet\u00ebs sociale. Prej k\u00ebndv\u00ebshtrimit tim feminist, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb mjaft e njohur. \u00cbsht\u00eb thelb\u00ebsore t\u00eb shqyrtojm\u00eb lidhjen mes pun\u00ebs s\u00eb paguar dhe asaj t\u00eb papaguar kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb mjaft e njohur. \u00cbsht\u00eb thelb\u00ebsore t\u00eb shqyrtojm\u00eb lidhjen mes pun\u00ebs s\u00eb paguar dhe asaj t\u00eb papaguar ose t\u00eb n\u00ebnpaguar, si dhe marr\u00ebdh\u00ebniet mes ekonomis\u00eb dhe natyr\u00ebs, dimensioneve ekologjike, apo kufizimeve t\u00eb vendosura mbi demokracin\u00eb. P\u00ebr shembull, kapitalizmi krijon patologji politike q\u00eb lidhen me k\u00ebto kufizime. Ju p\u00ebrmend\u00ebt rac\u00ebn dhe perandorin\u00eb, si dhe marr\u00ebdh\u00ebnien midis ekonomis\u00eb dhe organizimit m\u00eb t\u00eb madh gjeografik t\u00eb bot\u00ebs rreth linj\u00ebs globale t\u00eb ngjyrave (global color line) \u2013 nj\u00eb term i p\u00ebrdorur nga Du Bois, i cili ndan racat n\u00eb mbar\u00eb bot\u00ebn. T\u00eb gjitha k\u00ebto dalin n\u00eb pah kur e mendoni kapitalizmin si di\u00e7ka m\u00eb t\u00eb madhe se nj\u00eb ekonomi, duke p\u00ebrfshir\u00eb t\u00eb gjitha k\u00ebto si arena mb\u00ebshtet\u00ebse q\u00eb mund\u00ebsojn\u00eb funksionimin e ekonomis\u00eb. Por problemi q\u00ebndron n\u00eb faktin se ky relacion i krijuar \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb kontradiktor, pervers dhe destabilizues. Ekonomia, borxhi dhe i gjith\u00eb organizimi i kapitalizmit jan\u00eb strukturuar, le t\u00eb themi, p\u00ebr t\u00eb inkurajuar dhe ushtruar presion t\u00eb madh mbi aktor\u00ebt e fuqish\u00ebm ekonomik\u00eb \u2013 investitor\u00ebt e m\u00ebdhenj, korporatat \u2013 duke i ftuar n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb implicite q\u00eb t\u00eb “kanibalizojn\u00eb” k\u00ebto burime. Sistemi i nxit ata t\u00eb shfryt\u00ebzojn\u00eb natyr\u00ebn, t\u00eb p\u00ebrfitojn\u00eb nga puna, t\u00eb grabisin tokat dhe burimet e indigjen\u00ebve dhe popullatave t\u00eb racizuara apo t\u00eb pushtuara, si dhe t\u00eb minojn\u00eb demokracin\u00eb. K\u00ebto jan\u00eb element\u00ebt q\u00eb i duhen sistemit p\u00ebr t\u00eb funksionuar, por nj\u00ebkoh\u00ebsisht sistemi \u00ebsht\u00eb i nd\u00ebrtuar p\u00ebr t’i gllab\u00ebruar, varf\u00ebruar dhe d\u00ebmtuar k\u00ebto burime pa asnj\u00eb detyrim p\u00ebr t’i riparuar. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb ajo q\u00eb n\u00ebnkuptoj me “kanibalizim.” \u00cbsht\u00eb nj\u00eb dinamik\u00eb ku sistemi gllab\u00ebron vet\u00eb kushtet e veta t\u00eb mund\u00ebsis\u00eb \u2013 q\u00eb, p\u00ebr fat t\u00eb keq, jan\u00eb edhe kushtet e jet\u00ebs son\u00eb, me t\u00eb cilat kemi nj\u00eb lidhje dhe nj\u00eb q\u00ebllim. Kjo tendenc\u00eb e rr\u00ebnjosur drejt vet\u00ebdestabilizimit nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb aspak rast\u00ebsore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Tani, sa i p\u00ebrket librit tuaj t\u00eb ri, Tri Fytyrat e Pun\u00ebs Kapitaliste: Zbulimi i Lidhjeve t\u00eb Fshehura nd\u00ebrmjet Gjinis\u00eb, Rac\u00ebs dhe Klas\u00ebs, p\u00ebrmbajtja bazohet n\u00eb Leksionet e Benjaminit, nj\u00eb pozit\u00eb e p\u00ebrkohshme n\u00eb Qendr\u00ebn p\u00ebr Shkenca Humane dhe Ndryshime Sociale n\u00eb Universitetin Humboldt n\u00eb Berlin. N\u00eb k\u00ebto leksione, q\u00ebllimi juaj ishte t\u00eb zhvillonit konceptin e pun\u00ebs. Ju shtruat pyetjen: “Ndoshta po pyesni veten: Pse puna? Pse ta b\u00ebjm\u00eb at\u00eb koncept t\u00eb st\u00ebrvjet\u00ebruar pik\u00ebnisje p\u00ebr rimendimin e gjinis\u00eb, rac\u00ebs dhe klas\u00ebs? A nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb kjo nj\u00eb perspektiv\u00eb q\u00eb i jep p\u00ebrpar\u00ebsi klas\u00ebs mbi gjinin\u00eb dhe rac\u00ebn? Dhe m\u00eb tej, pse triada ka nevoj\u00eb t\u00eb rimendohet n\u00eb radh\u00eb t\u00eb par\u00eb?”<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Epo, m\u00eb her\u00ebt p\u00ebrmend\u00ebt konceptin e nd\u00ebrthurjes. Mendoj se ajo q\u00eb po shohim sot \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb d\u00ebshir\u00eb e theksuar p\u00ebr korniza m\u00eb gjith\u00ebp\u00ebrfshir\u00ebse. Njer\u00ebzit k\u00ebrkojn\u00eb m\u00ebnyra p\u00ebr t\u00eb promovuar bashk\u00ebpunim dhe integrim m\u00eb t\u00eb madh nd\u00ebrmjet betejave p\u00ebr drejt\u00ebsi riprodhuese, luft\u00ebs kund\u00ebr dhun\u00ebs gjinore, luft\u00ebs kund\u00ebr racizmit, luft\u00ebs p\u00ebr mbrojtjen e mjedisit dhe shum\u00eb kauzave t\u00eb tjera. Nd\u00ebrkoh\u00eb, ekziston nj\u00eb energji e madhe emancipuese, por ajo shpesh \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb e shp\u00ebrndar\u00eb dhe e fragmentuar. Ky fragmentim ka ndodhur pas disa dekadash ku njer\u00ebzit ndjenin nevoj\u00ebn p\u00ebr t\u00eb artikuluar n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb t\u00eb pavarur perspektivat e tyre, pa nd\u00ebrhyrje nga aktor\u00eb m\u00eb t\u00eb fuqish\u00ebm. Nd\u00ebrsa kjo periudh\u00eb ka sjell\u00eb shum\u00eb p\u00ebrfitime, si rritja e nd\u00ebrgjegj\u00ebsimit dhe diversifikimi i pik\u00ebpamjeve, ajo gjithashtu na ka l\u00ebn\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb situat\u00eb t\u00eb fragmentuar. Tani po shohim nj\u00eb tendenc\u00eb drejt integrimit, e cila reflektohet n\u00eb rritjen ose rishfaqjen e qasjeve si feminizmi riprodhues social, feminizmi marksist, teorit\u00eb e kapitalizmit racor, ekosocializmi, ekofeminizmi dhe nd\u00ebrthurja. K\u00ebto paradigma p\u00ebrpiqen t\u00eb ofrojn\u00eb qasje m\u00eb integruese, edhe pse asnj\u00ebra prej tyre nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb ende e p\u00ebrsosur. N\u00eb librin tim t\u00eb ri, p\u00ebrpiqem t\u00eb eksploroj k\u00ebt\u00eb impuls p\u00ebr integrim p\u00ebrmes konceptit t\u00eb pun\u00ebs. Hipoteza ime \u00ebsht\u00eb se kapitalizmi mb\u00ebshtetet n\u00eb tre forma kryesore t\u00eb pun\u00ebs, t\u00eb cilat jan\u00eb t\u00eb nd\u00ebrthurura funksionalisht. S\u00eb pari, puna e shfryt\u00ebzuar p\u00ebrfaq\u00ebson at\u00eb q\u00eb marksist\u00ebt tradicionalisht e kan\u00eb konceptuar si pun\u00ebn e lir\u00eb t\u00eb klas\u00ebs pun\u00ebtore n\u00eb prodhimin e mallrave p\u00ebr fitim. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb sigurisht nj\u00eb fytyr\u00eb thelb\u00ebsore e pun\u00ebs kapitaliste. S\u00eb dyti, puna e shpron\u00ebsuar p\u00ebrfshin pun\u00ebn gjysm\u00eb t\u00eb lir\u00eb ose jo t\u00eb lir\u00eb, shpesh t\u00eb kryer nga popullata t\u00eb racializuara dhe t\u00eb shpron\u00ebsuara, q\u00eb kapitali i merr ose i shfryt\u00ebzon pa kosto t\u00eb plota. S\u00eb fundi, kemi pun\u00ebn sht\u00ebpiake, ose si\u00e7 e kan\u00eb quajtur feminist\u00ebt, pun\u00ebn riprodhuese sociale. Ekzistojn\u00eb t\u00eb pakt\u00ebn k\u00ebto tre forma themelore t\u00eb pun\u00ebs dhe kapitalizmi nuk mund t\u00eb funksionoj\u00eb pa t\u00eb gjitha k\u00ebto. Feminizmi e kuptoi lidhjen midis pun\u00ebs s\u00eb kujdesit dhe t\u00eb eksploatuar. Ne jemi p\u00ebrpjekur ta teorizojm\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb p\u00ebr nj\u00eb koh\u00eb t\u00eb gjat\u00eb dhe antiracist\u00ebt kan\u00eb menduar p\u00ebr marr\u00ebdh\u00ebnien midis pun\u00ebs s\u00eb lir\u00eb dhe jo t\u00eb lir\u00eb p\u00ebr nj\u00eb koh\u00eb t\u00eb gjat\u00eb. Ajo q\u00eb propozoj \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb korniz\u00eb q\u00eb tregon sesi k\u00ebto forma t\u00eb pun\u00ebs jo vet\u00ebm q\u00eb bashk\u00ebjetojn\u00eb, por jan\u00eb funksionalisht t\u00eb lidhura, edhe pse popullatat q\u00eb i kryejn\u00eb ato ndahen nga nj\u00ebri-tjetri sipas rac\u00ebs, gjinis\u00eb etj. Ky integrim na lejon t\u00eb kuptojm\u00eb q\u00eb padrejt\u00ebsit\u00eb gjinore, racore dhe klasore nuk jan\u00eb t\u00eb rast\u00ebsishme, por rrjedhojn\u00eb drejtp\u00ebrdrejt nga m\u00ebnyra kapitaliste e organizimit t\u00eb shoq\u00ebris\u00eb dhe pun\u00ebs. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb perspektiv\u00eb integruese. Ideja \u00ebsht\u00eb q\u00eb kapitalizmi i kuptuar n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb, zbulon disa lidhje t\u00eb fshehura t\u00eb gjinis\u00eb, rac\u00ebs dhe klas\u00ebs. Hipoteza ime \u00ebsht\u00eb se ky organizim i pun\u00ebs sociale dhe ndarjet q\u00eb ai ngulmon brenda emetimeve t\u00eb klas\u00ebs pun\u00ebtore t\u00eb rac\u00ebs, gjinis\u00eb, e k\u00ebshtu me radh\u00eb, q\u00eb formojn\u00eb nj\u00eb teori unitare, ndryshe nga sistemet e shumta. Kjo na tregon se si krijohen gjinia, raca dhe klasa. Jo rast\u00ebsisht. Nga kapitalizmi, nga kjo form\u00eb organizimi shoq\u00ebror. Pra, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb ideja q\u00eb trajtoj n\u00eb k\u00ebto leksione dhe n\u00eb librin tim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Sipas Marksit, vlera e produktit t\u00eb p\u00ebrgjithsh\u00ebm shoq\u00ebror p\u00ebrcaktohet nga koha mesatare e nevojshme e pun\u00ebs shoq\u00ebrore p\u00ebr ta prodhuar at\u00eb, pavar\u00ebsisht n\u00ebse \u00e7mimi i shitjes s\u00eb mallrave n\u00eb sektor\u00eb t\u00eb ndrysh\u00ebm \u00ebsht\u00eb mbi ose n\u00ebn vler\u00ebn e tyre t\u00eb k\u00ebmbimit. Megjithat\u00eb, nj\u00eb problem q\u00eb shfaqet \u00ebsht\u00eb se koha mesatare e nevojshme p\u00ebr t\u00eb riprodhuar vet\u00eb pun\u00ebtor\u00ebt \u00ebsht\u00eb e v\u00ebshtir\u00eb p\u00ebr t\u2019u matur ose formalizuar, sepse zakonisht konsiderohet se nuk krijon “vler\u00eb prodhuese.” Ju argumentoni se ndarja midis pun\u00ebs prodhuese dhe asaj riprodhuese p\u00ebrforcon iden\u00eb se vet\u00ebm nj\u00eb lloj pune ka aft\u00ebsin\u00eb t\u00eb krijoj\u00eb vler\u00eb n\u00eb kapitaliz\u00ebm. A mund ta shpjegoni m\u00eb tej k\u00ebt\u00eb ide? Gjithashtu, p\u00ebrse, pavar\u00ebsisht nga kjo kritik\u00eb, ju vazhdoni t\u00eb quani “pun\u00eb riprodhuese” t\u00eb gjitha ato aktivitete q\u00eb kryhen nga trupa t\u00eb racizuar dhe seksualizuar?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Pra, pse e b\u00ebj apo pse jo?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Pse, nga nj\u00ebra an\u00eb, kritikoni ndarjen mes pun\u00ebs prodhuese dhe riprodhuese, dhe nga ana tjet\u00ebr e quani pun\u00eb riprodhuese sociale t\u00eb gjith\u00eb pun\u00ebn e papaguar, e cila kryhet kryesisht nga grat\u00eb dhe njer\u00ebzit e racizuar? Pik\u00ebrisht p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb arsye quhet pun\u00eb riprodhuese, sepse, sipas jush, ka gjithashtu pun\u00eb t\u00eb paguar q\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb gjithashtu riprodhuese. Pra, pse e quani riprodhuese, n\u00ebse ajo mund t\u00eb prodhoj\u00eb mbivler\u00eb kur paguhet?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: N\u00eb rregull, problemi q\u00eb po p\u00ebrmendni \u00ebsht\u00eb se ky dallim mes pun\u00ebs prodhuese dhe riprodhuese \u00ebsht\u00eb krijuar nga kapitalizmi. Nuk mendoj se ka ekzistuar ndonj\u00ebher\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb kuptim t\u00eb thell\u00eb para kapitalizmit. Un\u00eb besoj se nj\u00eb shoq\u00ebri e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb post-kapitaliste do t\u00eb duhej, n\u00ebse jo ta shfuqizonte plot\u00ebsisht, t\u00eb pakt\u00ebn ta riimagjinonte k\u00ebt\u00eb dallim rr\u00ebnj\u00ebsisht. Pra, ne jetojm\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb shoq\u00ebri q\u00eb ka rr\u00ebnjosur k\u00ebt\u00eb ndarje dhe kjo nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb thjesht nj\u00eb ideologji, por nj\u00eb ndarje e institucionalizuar. Prandaj, p\u00ebr t\u00eb kuptuar se si funksionon shoq\u00ebria dhe p\u00ebr t\u00eb hartuar struktur\u00ebn dhe dinamizmin e saj, duhet ta p\u00ebrdorim k\u00ebt\u00eb dallim. Megjithat\u00eb, nuk e miratojm\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb ndarje; p\u00ebrkundrazi, mendojm\u00eb se ajo \u00ebsht\u00eb rr\u00ebnja e shtypjes. Por, p\u00ebr shkak t\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00ebs se si \u00ebsht\u00eb organizuar shoq\u00ebria, duhet t\u00eb flasim p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb ndarje. Un\u00eb p\u00ebrpiqem t\u00eb jem e kujdesshme q\u00eb t\u00eb mbaj t\u00eb dyja an\u00ebt e k\u00ebsaj fotografie kur p\u00ebrshkruaj shoq\u00ebrin\u00eb. Gjithashtu, po p\u00ebrpiqem t\u00eb tregoj se si teoria e vler\u00ebs q\u00eb lidhet me k\u00ebt\u00eb dallim \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb problematike, dhe po e trajtoj me kujdes dallimin mes pasuris\u00eb dhe vler\u00ebs. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb fush\u00eb ku Marksi p\u00ebrdor termin “pasuri” si nj\u00eb term t\u00eb p\u00ebrgjithsh\u00ebm, q\u00eb nuk lidhet ve\u00e7mas me kapitalizmin. N\u00eb t\u00eb kund\u00ebrt, “vlera” \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb term kapitalist dhe lidhet me procesin e akumulimit t\u00eb kapitalit, ku p\u00ebrfshihet edhe procesi i monetizimit t\u00eb pun\u00ebs. Ajo q\u00eb po p\u00ebrpiqem t\u00eb tregoj \u00ebsht\u00eb se si kapitali, p\u00ebrmes aktor\u00ebve kapitalist\u00eb, merr pasurin\u00eb dhe e shnd\u00ebrron at\u00eb n\u00eb vler\u00eb. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb procesi q\u00eb ndodh me pun\u00ebn, ku ata nuk paguajn\u00eb p\u00ebr kostot e riprodhimit t\u00eb saj, p\u00ebrve\u00e7 n\u00eb disa regjime socialdemokrate, por n\u00eb shumic\u00ebn e rasteve ata gjejn\u00eb m\u00ebnyra p\u00ebr ta shmangur k\u00ebt\u00eb, madje edhe me pasoja sociale. Po ashtu, \u00ebsht\u00eb e r\u00ebnd\u00ebsishme t\u00eb kuptojm\u00eb dallimin mes vler\u00ebs s\u00eb tep\u00ebrt dhe fitimit. Un\u00eb pranoj mendimin marksist ortodoks q\u00eb vlera e tep\u00ebrt krijohet nga or\u00ebt shtes\u00eb t\u00eb pun\u00ebs q\u00eb kapitali nuk i paguan, duke l\u00ebn\u00eb anash kostot e jetes\u00ebs p\u00ebr pun\u00ebtor\u00ebt. Kapitalisti p\u00ebrvet\u00ebson k\u00ebt\u00eb vler\u00eb t\u00eb tep\u00ebrt, por vlera e tep\u00ebrt nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb e vetmja \u00e7\u00ebshtje. N\u00eb perspektiv\u00ebn q\u00eb po zhvilloj, un\u00eb fokusohem m\u00eb shum\u00eb tek fitimi dhe komponent\u00ebt e tij, t\u00eb cil\u00ebt p\u00ebrfshijn\u00eb edhe ato inpute t\u00eb tjera, si kostot e riprodhimit ekologjik dhe t\u00eb tjera q\u00eb kapitalisti kurr\u00eb nuk i paguan. K\u00ebshtu q\u00eb fitimi p\u00ebrfshin shum\u00eb m\u00eb tep\u00ebr se vler\u00ebn e tep\u00ebrt. Ai p\u00ebrfshin kostot q\u00eb shoq\u00ebria dhe pun\u00ebtor\u00ebt paguajn\u00eb, p\u00ebrfshir\u00eb kostot e energjis\u00eb dhe p\u00ebrkujdesit ekologjik, si dhe sh\u00ebrbimet publike. Kapitalist\u00ebt shpesh shmangin k\u00ebto pagesa, duke i ngarkuar ato mbi klas\u00ebn pun\u00ebtore, e cila \u00ebsht\u00eb e detyruar t\u00eb paguaj\u00eb taksat dhe t\u00eb p\u00ebrballoj\u00eb k\u00ebto kosto. Prandaj, ky \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb element i fitimit q\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb m\u00eb i gjer\u00eb se vlera e tep\u00ebrt, dhe marksist\u00ebt ortodoks\u00eb shpesh fokusohen vet\u00ebm n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb t\u00eb fundit, duke l\u00ebn\u00eb pas shum\u00eb nga aspektet e tjera t\u00eb kapitalizmit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Pra, kjo \u00e7on n\u00eb pyetjen tjet\u00ebr p\u00ebr t\u00eb cil\u00ebn flisni n\u00eb leksionin e dyt\u00eb t\u00eb Benjaminit: tre l\u00ebvizjet e pun\u00ebs. A mund t\u00eb thellohesh n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Po, mendoj se duhet t\u00eb kisha th\u00ebn\u00eb m\u00eb her\u00ebt se jam frym\u00ebzuar p\u00ebr t\u00eb zhvilluar k\u00ebt\u00eb qasje nga W.E.B Dubois. Kam dh\u00ebn\u00eb m\u00ebsim p\u00ebr “Rind\u00ebrtimin e Zi”, q\u00eb mendoj se \u00ebsht\u00eb kryevepra e tij nga viti 1935. E vendos at\u00eb aty me historin\u00eb e Trosky-it mbi Revolucionin Rus si nj\u00eb nga kryeveprat e m\u00ebdha t\u00eb historiografis\u00eb marksiste. Do t\u00eb doja q\u00eb t\u00eb lexohej dhe diskutohej m\u00eb gjer\u00ebsisht. \u00cbsht\u00eb nj\u00eb lib\u00ebr q\u00eb trajton ngjarje amerikane, prandaj mund t\u00eb mos ket\u00eb v\u00ebmendjen globale q\u00eb meriton. Megjithat\u00eb, idet\u00eb e Dubois jan\u00eb t\u00eb jasht\u00ebzakonshme. Ai ofron nj\u00eb histori t\u00eb Luft\u00ebs Civile Amerikane t\u00eb shekullit t\u00eb 19-t\u00eb, ku trajtohet e gjith\u00eb trajektorja nga lufta civile dhe heqja formale e skllav\u00ebris\u00eb, p\u00ebrpjekja p\u00ebrmes rind\u00ebrtimit rr\u00ebnj\u00ebsor p\u00ebr t\u00eb transformuar marr\u00ebdh\u00ebniet shoq\u00ebrore, politike, ekonomike dhe pron\u00ebsore n\u00eb Jug, n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb q\u00eb emancipimi i skllev\u00ebrve t\u00eb b\u00ebhet nj\u00eb realitet dhe jo vet\u00ebm nj\u00eb akt formal. Kjo vazhdon p\u00ebr disa dekada, deri n\u00eb at\u00eb q\u00eb ai e quan kund\u00ebrrevolucioni i pron\u00ebs, ku kryeqyteti verior e braktis aleanc\u00ebn dhe refuzon ta mb\u00ebshtes\u00eb. Krijohet nj\u00eb kriz\u00eb politike dhe pushteti u kthehet klasave mbjell\u00ebse n\u00eb Jug, duke rivendosur supremacin\u00eb e tyre t\u00eb bardh\u00eb. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb histori e jasht\u00ebzakonshme. Shum\u00eb njer\u00ebz e kan\u00eb treguar historin\u00eb, por ajo q\u00eb b\u00ebn Dubois \u00ebsht\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb e jasht\u00ebzakonshme. Ai thot\u00eb se n\u00eb shekullin e 19-t\u00eb, Shtetet e Bashkuara kishin dy l\u00ebvizje pun\u00ebtore: l\u00ebvizjen sindikaliste, q\u00eb s\u00eb shpejti do t\u00eb krijonte nj\u00eb l\u00ebvizje t\u00eb re socialiste, dhe abolicionizmin, luft\u00ebn kund\u00ebr skllav\u00ebris\u00eb, q\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb gjithashtu nj\u00eb l\u00ebvizje pun\u00ebtore. Dubois zhvillon iden\u00eb q\u00eb k\u00ebto jan\u00eb dy forma thelb\u00ebsore t\u00eb pun\u00ebs n\u00eb kapitaliz\u00ebm, dhe ato jan\u00eb t\u00eb r\u00ebnd\u00ebsishme p\u00ebr t\u00eb kuptuar gjith\u00e7ka s\u00eb bashku n\u00eb akumulimin e kapitalit. Ai tregon se nuk mund t\u00eb kemi Manchester pa Mississippi; Manchester i Anglis\u00eb Veriore, ku Engels-i shkroi p\u00ebr fabrikat satanike t\u00eb tekstilit, q\u00eb p\u00ebrdorin pambuk t\u00eb pap\u00ebrpunuar q\u00eb prodhohet me \u00e7mim t\u00eb lir\u00eb n\u00eb plantacionet e skllev\u00ebrve n\u00eb Mississippi. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb shembull i duksh\u00ebm i ndarjes mes prodhimit industrial dhe nxjerrjes s\u00eb l\u00ebnd\u00ebve t\u00eb para, q\u00eb n\u00eb t\u00eb v\u00ebrtet\u00eb jan\u00eb pjes\u00eb t\u00eb nj\u00eb motori ekonomik dinamik. Por l\u00ebvizjet pun\u00ebtore, q\u00eb nuk e shohin k\u00ebt\u00eb lidhje, nuk e kuptojn\u00eb se jan\u00eb t\u00eb lidhura dhe se t\u00eb dyja jan\u00eb pjes\u00eb t\u00eb nj\u00eb sistemi. N\u00ebse k\u00ebto dy l\u00ebvizje do t\u00eb kishin bashkuar forcat, historia e Shteteve t\u00eb Bashkuara dhe e bot\u00ebs kapitaliste mund t\u00eb kishte qen\u00eb ndryshe. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb ide e fuqishme p\u00ebr t\u00eb kuptuar momentet kur l\u00ebvizjet nuk e njohin nj\u00ebra-tjetr\u00ebn. Tani, ndoshta mund t\u00eb shihni se perspektiva ime feministe po ndikon dhe thot\u00eb: “Po, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb, por pse vet\u00ebm dy l\u00ebvizje? Pse jo tre?” Sepse gjith\u00eb k\u00ebto dekada pune t\u00eb madhe nga feminist\u00ebt p\u00ebr pun\u00ebn e kujdesit dhe pun\u00ebs riprodhuese, dhe sigurisht, dy djem nuk e shohin as pun\u00ebn riprodhuese t\u00eb skllav\u00ebruar. Dubois e teorizon k\u00ebt\u00eb n\u00eb disa pasazhe, por nuk e ka p\u00ebrfshir\u00eb si pjes\u00eb t\u00eb konceptualizimit t\u00eb tij. Pra, pse jo tre l\u00ebvizje pun\u00ebtore? Dhe mund ta mendojm\u00eb feminizmin si nj\u00eb l\u00ebvizje pun\u00ebtore t\u00eb panjohur, jo vet\u00ebm nga t\u00eb tjer\u00ebt, por ndoshta edhe nga vet\u00eb ajo apo nga pjes\u00eb t\u00eb m\u00ebdha t\u00eb saj? Dhe n\u00ebse po, cilat jan\u00eb perspektivat sot p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb? Kjo mund t\u00eb inkurajoj\u00eb aktivizmin anti-racist, feminist, sindikalist dhe t\u00eb tjera q\u00eb t\u00eb mendojn\u00eb p\u00ebr veten si l\u00ebvizje t\u00eb pun\u00ebs. Secili prej tyre \u00ebsht\u00eb si nj\u00eb motor, si t\u00eb thuash, nj\u00eb piston n\u00eb t\u00eb nj\u00ebjtin motor q\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb kapitalizmi dhe kjo flet p\u00ebr at\u00eb q\u00eb po flisnim m\u00eb par\u00eb, mund\u00ebsin\u00eb e nj\u00eb m\u00ebnyre m\u00eb t\u00eb integruar t\u00eb t\u00eb menduarit. Pra, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb ajo q\u00eb un\u00eb u p\u00ebrpoqa t\u00eb argumentoja n\u00eb k\u00ebto leksione, po sikur ne feminist\u00ebt t\u00eb mendonim p\u00ebr shum\u00eb nga ato q\u00eb po b\u00ebjm\u00eb si nj\u00eb form\u00eb lufte pune? Dhe \u00e7far\u00eb n\u00ebse aktivist\u00ebt anti-racist mund ta kuptojn\u00eb se abolicionizimi i burgjeve dhe dhuna policore jan\u00eb forma t\u00eb luft\u00ebs s\u00eb pun\u00ebs? Po l\u00ebvizja sindikaliste? Po sikur k\u00ebto tri l\u00ebvizje t\u00eb kuptonin veten dhe nj\u00ebra-tjetr\u00ebn si an\u00ebtare kolege t\u00eb pun\u00ebs? A mund t\u00eb mendonim p\u00ebr nj\u00eb ide m\u00eb t\u00eb zgjeruar t\u00eb klas\u00ebs pun\u00ebtore, q\u00eb nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb vet\u00ebm segmenti i eksploatuar, por edhe k\u00ebto segmente t\u00eb tjera? Dhe si mund t\u00eb kap\u00ebrcejm\u00eb ndarjet e brendshme politike? Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb hipoteza ime.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb interesante, dhe procesi i emancipimit duhet t\u00eb jet\u00eb, p\u00ebrs\u00ebri, aq i gjer\u00eb sa t\u00eb mundemi. Megjithat\u00eb, k\u00ebtu lindin probleme, sidomos kur flasim p\u00ebr familjen. Sipas shifrave t\u00eb fundit t\u00eb Kombeve t\u00eb Bashkuara, 85% e pun\u00ebs s\u00eb papaguar kryhet nga grat\u00eb n\u00eb mbar\u00eb bot\u00ebn dhe brenda familjes, e cila shihet si nj\u00eb institucion social. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb gjithashtu nj\u00eb institucion ku kryhen m\u00eb shum\u00eb se 78% e rasteve t\u00eb dhun\u00ebs ndaj grave, e cila ushtrohet nga familjar\u00ebt e tyre, kryesisht nga burra t\u00eb klas\u00ebs pun\u00ebtore. Pra, familja b\u00ebhet vendi kryesor i dhun\u00ebs s\u00eb drejtp\u00ebrdrejt\u00eb ndaj grave dhe nj\u00eb nga vendet kryesore t\u00eb shpron\u00ebsimit t\u00eb grave p\u00ebrmes pun\u00ebs sht\u00ebpiake t\u00eb papaguar. Si mendoni, cili mund t\u00eb jet\u00eb propozimi juaj p\u00ebr familjen moderne heteronukleare?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Po, absolutisht. Mendoj se kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb pyetja. Jam plot\u00ebsisht dakord q\u00eb familja \u00ebsht\u00eb, n\u00eb shum\u00eb pjes\u00eb t\u00eb bot\u00ebs, vendi kryesor i pun\u00ebs s\u00eb kujdesit, ose pun\u00ebs riprodhuese, q\u00eb un\u00eb e quaj pun\u00eb sht\u00ebpiake. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb, dhe gjithashtu \u00ebsht\u00eb e qart\u00eb q\u00eb dhuna gjinore \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb e p\u00ebrhapur n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb kontekst. Megjithat\u00eb, thelbi i argumentit tim \u00ebsht\u00eb aspekti i pun\u00ebs: ka nj\u00eb mas\u00eb t\u00eb madhe t\u00eb pun\u00ebs q\u00eb kryhet, n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb t\u00eb d\u00ebrrmuese, nga grat\u00eb n\u00eb mjediset sht\u00ebpiake, ose, kur \u00ebsht\u00eb me pages\u00eb, shpesh me kushte shum\u00eb t\u00eb ul\u00ebta dhe pa t\u00eb drejta pune. Grat\u00eb jan\u00eb gjithashtu t\u00eb ekspozuara ndaj dhun\u00ebs dhe c\u00ebnueshm\u00ebris\u00eb n\u00eb k\u00ebto kushte. Edhe n\u00ebse puna nuk b\u00ebhet n\u00eb sht\u00ebpin\u00eb e familjes, mund t\u00eb jet\u00eb sht\u00ebpia e pun\u00ebdh\u00ebn\u00ebsit tuaj, ku pastroni ose kujdeseni p\u00ebr f\u00ebmij\u00ebt, dhe ku mund t\u00eb p\u00ebrballeni me abuzim. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb problem serioz q\u00eb duhet trajtuar. P\u00ebr mua, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb arsye e fort\u00eb p\u00ebr t\u00eb mb\u00ebshtetur nj\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb feministe t\u00eb menduarit. Nuk po sugjeroj q\u00eb feminizmi duhet t\u00eb shnd\u00ebrrohet n\u00eb nj\u00eb l\u00ebvizje p\u00ebr t\u00eb drejtat e k\u00ebtyre “pun\u00ebtor\u00ebve\/eve” q\u00eb sapo p\u00ebrshkruam, por p\u00ebr t\u00eb drejtat e tyre p\u00ebr t\u00eb qen\u00eb t\u00eb lir\u00eb\/a nga dhuna dhe p\u00ebr t\u00eb pasur kushte pune t\u00eb sigurta. Ata\/o duhet t\u00eb ken\u00eb mund\u00ebsi p\u00ebr pun\u00eb t\u00eb paguar q\u00eb nuk i mbajn\u00eb t\u00eb mbyllur\/a n\u00eb sht\u00ebpi. Ata\/o duhet t\u00eb ken\u00eb qasje n\u00eb shoq\u00ebri dhe mund\u00ebsi p\u00ebr nj\u00eb jet\u00eb pa dhun\u00eb. Kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb ajo q\u00eb dua t\u00eb them me feminizmin si nj\u00eb l\u00ebvizje pun\u00ebtore. Mendoj se duhet t\u2019i shohim t\u00eb drejtat riprodhuese, p\u00ebrfshir\u00eb t\u00eb drejt\u00ebn p\u00ebr abort, si t\u00eb drejta pune q\u00eb lidhen me aft\u00ebsin\u00eb p\u00ebr t\u00eb kontrolluar trupin dhe p\u00ebr t\u00eb kontrolluar pun\u00ebn riprodhuese. L\u00ebvizja #MeToo, p\u00ebr shembull, ka t\u00eb b\u00ebj\u00eb me t\u00eb drejtat e pun\u00ebs. Ka t\u00eb b\u00ebj\u00eb me t\u00eb drejt\u00ebn p\u00ebr t\u00eb pasur nj\u00eb vend pune pa sulme seksuale, ngacmime dhe dhun\u00eb. P\u00ebr \u00e7udi, disa nga k\u00ebto \u00e7\u00ebshtje nuk jan\u00eb par\u00eb si \u00e7\u00ebshtje pune deri tani. Por, n\u00eb momentin q\u00eb i mendojm\u00eb ato n\u00eb k\u00ebto terma, b\u00ebhet e qart\u00eb se ato mund t\u00eb shihen si \u00e7\u00ebshtje pune, dhe kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb e r\u00ebnd\u00ebsishme p\u00ebr t\u2019i kuptuar. Problemi \u00ebsht\u00eb se puna e kujdesit shpesh shihet si “mospun\u00eb” n\u00eb kapitaliz\u00ebm. Ky asociim ideologjik \u00ebsht\u00eb kaq i fuqish\u00ebm sa na pengon t\u00eb shohim at\u00eb si pjes\u00eb t\u00eb sistemit t\u00eb pun\u00ebs. Nj\u00eb nga luft\u00ebrat m\u00eb t\u00eb m\u00ebdha historike \u00ebsht\u00eb b\u00ebr\u00eb q\u00eb t\u00eb kuptohet se edhe sindikalist\u00ebt e lir\u00eb normativ\u00eb duhet t\u00eb jen\u00eb t\u00eb lir\u00eb nga dhuna. Grat\u00eb kan\u00eb luftuar gjat\u00eb p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb \u00e7\u00ebshtje. Po ashtu, vendet e pun\u00ebs jan\u00eb t\u00eb mbushura me dhun\u00eb dhe kjo nuk duhet t\u00eb ndodh\u00eb. Nj\u00eb pik\u00eb e r\u00ebnd\u00ebsishme q\u00eb dua t\u00eb theksoj \u00ebsht\u00eb se mund t\u00eb lind\u00eb pyetja n\u00ebse ka nj\u00eb konflikt t\u00eb fort\u00eb midis grave q\u00eb i n\u00ebnshtrohen kushteve t\u00eb tmerrshme n\u00eb familje dhe burrave apo baballar\u00ebve t\u00eb tyre. Ajo q\u00eb dua t\u00eb them \u00ebsht\u00eb se k\u00ebta burra shpesh jan\u00eb kryesit e dhun\u00ebs, dhe kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb q\u00eb duhet ta ndalojm\u00eb. Por nuk mendoj se ata jan\u00eb p\u00ebrfituesit kryesor\u00eb t\u00eb k\u00ebsaj situate. E nj\u00ebjta gj\u00eb vlen p\u00ebr pun\u00ebtor\u00ebt e bardh\u00eb dhe t\u00eb zi. Disa pun\u00ebtor\u00eb t\u00eb bardh\u00eb jan\u00eb racist\u00eb dhe jan\u00eb pjes\u00eb e sulmeve raciste ndaj an\u00ebtar\u00ebve t\u00eb klas\u00ebs pun\u00ebtore t\u00eb zez\u00eb, por k\u00ebta pun\u00ebtor\u00eb kan\u00eb shum\u00eb m\u00eb tep\u00ebr p\u00ebr t\u00eb fituar sesa p\u00ebr t\u00eb humbur, n\u00ebse mund t\u00eb kuptojn\u00eb se ata jan\u00eb aleat\u00ebt e mundsh\u00ebm t\u00eb tyre. E nj\u00ebjta gj\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb me burrat dhe grat\u00eb e klas\u00ebs pun\u00ebtore. Pavar\u00ebsisht modeleve patriarkale dhe shtyp\u00ebse, p\u00ebrfituesi kryesor \u00ebsht\u00eb kapitali. K\u00ebta kryefamiljar\u00eb shpesh jan\u00eb nj\u00ebfar\u00eb “zot” mbi grat\u00eb, f\u00ebmij\u00ebt dhe vajzat e tyre, duke u sjell\u00eb si mbret\u00ebr n\u00eb k\u00ebshtjella. Megjithat\u00eb, ne nuk mund t\u00eb justifikojm\u00eb asnj\u00eb prej k\u00ebtyre veprimeve. N\u00ebse nuk mund t\u00eb kuptojm\u00eb se shumica e njer\u00ebzve, p\u00ebrfshir\u00eb ata q\u00eb b\u00ebjn\u00eb gj\u00ebra t\u00eb k\u00ebqija, jan\u00eb gjithashtu viktima t\u00eb k\u00ebtij sistemi dhe kan\u00eb di\u00e7ka p\u00ebr t\u00eb fituar nga transformimi i tij, nuk do t\u00eb mund ta ndryshojm\u00eb bot\u00ebn.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: E ndaj iden\u00eb se p\u00ebrfitimet do t\u00eb ishin universale n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb kuptim, n\u00ebse t\u00eb gjith\u00eb e kuptojm\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb. Por p\u00ebrs\u00ebri, ekziston gjithmon\u00eb nj\u00eb p\u00ebrballje dhe p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb arsye kemi rryma t\u00eb ndryshme feministe. Nga nj\u00ebra an\u00eb, ka teori dekoloniale dhe komunitare q\u00eb jan\u00eb m\u00eb af\u00ebr teoris\u00eb s\u00eb “imbrikimit”, nga e cila \u00ebsht\u00eb zhvilluar edhe feminizmi materialist, dhe nga ana tjet\u00ebr, ka nj\u00eb ndarje m\u00eb t\u00eb thell\u00eb nd\u00ebrmjet rrymave, mes atyre q\u00eb mendojn\u00eb se burrat dhe grat\u00eb jan\u00eb krijuar dhe mund t\u00eb shuhen, dhe atyre teorive, si teoria unitare, e cila mendon p\u00ebr nj\u00eb bot\u00eb t\u00eb emancipuar ku nuk do t\u00eb ket\u00eb kapitalist\u00eb dhe proletar\u00eb, por do t\u00eb ket\u00eb gra dhe burra. N\u00eb k\u00ebto teori marksiste unitare, grat\u00eb dhe burrat nuk b\u00ebhen, por lindin dhe k\u00ebshtu nuk mund t\u00eb zhduken. Sipas k\u00ebtij kuadri t\u00eb fundit, p\u00ebrfituesit e vet\u00ebm t\u00eb pun\u00ebs s\u00eb papaguar t\u00eb grave jan\u00eb kapitalist\u00ebt, jo burrat pun\u00ebtor\u00eb. Por at\u00ebher\u00eb, pse burrat q\u00eb punojn\u00eb kan\u00eb m\u00eb shum\u00eb koh\u00eb, m\u00eb shum\u00eb paga, m\u00eb shum\u00eb hap\u00ebsir\u00eb, m\u00eb shum\u00eb prestigj, m\u00eb shum\u00eb pushtet dhe arsim t\u00eb lart\u00eb sesa grat\u00eb q\u00eb punojn\u00eb n\u00eb mbar\u00eb bot\u00ebn?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Ne jemi dakord mbi k\u00ebt\u00eb. Por pyetja \u00ebsht\u00eb se si t\u2019i p\u00ebrgjigjemi politikisht k\u00ebsaj? Jule Goikoetxea: Ne p\u00ebrpiqemi ta b\u00ebjm\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb duke prodhuar nj\u00eb korniz\u00eb n\u00eb t\u00eb cil\u00ebn jo e gjith\u00eb shtypja dhe shfryt\u00ebzimi mund t\u00eb reduktohen n\u00eb nj\u00eb t\u00eb keqe, kapitaliz\u00ebm, pasi ne nuk mendojm\u00eb se kapitalizmi shpik grat\u00eb, dhe k\u00ebshtu, grat\u00eb nuk do t\u00eb zhduken kur kapitalizmi t\u00eb bjer\u00eb. Prandaj, ne p\u00ebrpiqemi t\u00eb organizojm\u00eb l\u00ebvizje autonome, si l\u00ebvizja feministe, t\u00eb cilat jan\u00eb t\u00eb koordinuara me l\u00ebvizjet rinore, s\u00eb bashku me sindikatat klasike, organizatat e ndryshimeve klimatike, sindikatat vendase t\u00eb pun\u00ebs, l\u00ebvizjet e pensionist\u00ebve, etj. Un\u00eb mendoj se ndoshta problemi i cop\u00ebzimit \u00ebsht\u00eb p\u00ebrb\u00ebr\u00ebs i k\u00ebsaj teorie unitare, pasi ajo i redukton t\u00eb gjitha kompleksitetet e bot\u00ebs son\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb kauz\u00eb, nj\u00eb kauz\u00eb q\u00eb nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb n\u00eb gjendje t\u00eb bashkoj\u00eb beteja t\u00eb tjera. Pyetja \u00ebsht\u00eb pse. Nga ana tjet\u00ebr, kompleksiteti nuk do t\u00eb thot\u00eb fragmentim. Ne mund t\u00eb politizojm\u00eb dhe t\u00eb veprojm\u00eb n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb strategjike brenda k\u00ebtij kompleksiteti q\u00eb nuk e redukton t\u00eb gjith\u00eb t\u00eb keqen n\u00eb nj\u00eb kauz\u00eb, pasi reduktimi do t\u00eb thot\u00eb p\u00ebrjashtim. N\u00eb \u00e7do rast, \u00e7far\u00eb lloj strukture institucionale duhet t\u00eb nd\u00ebrtojn\u00eb k\u00ebto l\u00ebvizje p\u00ebr t\u00eb vendosur nj\u00eb proces t\u00eb vazhduesh\u00ebm emancipimi? Me fjal\u00eb t\u00eb tjera, \u00e7far\u00eb organizimi institucional do t\u00eb propozonit, duke pasur parasysh kriz\u00ebn e sindikatave, partive politike dhe arkitektur\u00ebs politike liberale, dhe duke marr\u00eb parasysh duksh\u00ebm ndjenj\u00ebn e impotenc\u00ebs dhe acarimit, e cila \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb e p\u00ebrhapur? Nancy Fraser: Un\u00eb kam nj\u00eb ide shum\u00eb t\u00eb qart\u00eb p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb. Po e nis nga fakti se ka shum\u00eb aktiviz\u00ebm dhe energji emancipimi, ose potencialisht emancipuese. Dhe mendimi im fillestar \u00ebsht\u00eb se si mund t\u00eb imagjinojm\u00eb m\u00eb shum\u00eb bashk\u00ebpunim dhe integrim t\u00eb atyre q\u00ebllimeve m\u00eb t\u00eb p\u00ebrbashk\u00ebta? Me k\u00ebt\u00eb nuk dua t\u00eb them se duhet t\u00eb ndodh\u00eb nj\u00eb shkrirje e plot\u00eb apo di\u00e7ka e till\u00eb. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb mendimi im i par\u00eb. Jam gjithashtu shum\u00eb e ndikuar nga ideja gramshiane e nj\u00eb blloku kund\u00ebrhegjemonik. Dhe k\u00ebshtu, ju e dini, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb historikisht e pranishme n\u00eb t\u00eb gjith\u00eb mendimin socialist marksist, ku Lenini kishte nj\u00eb problem se si t\u00eb krijonte nj\u00eb aleanc\u00eb agrare-pun\u00ebtore. Gramsci ka nj\u00eb pyetje: Si i bashkoni fshatar\u00ebt sardinez\u00eb dhe pun\u00ebtor\u00ebt e Fiat-it t\u00eb Torinos? Un\u00eb mendoj se kemi nj\u00eb problem t\u00eb ngjash\u00ebm, pasi ka shum\u00eb terma t\u00eb ndrysh\u00ebm dhe ata jan\u00eb t\u00eb gjith\u00eb viktima t\u00eb t\u00eb nj\u00ebjtit sistem shoq\u00ebror, sipas mendimit tim. Nuk po p\u00ebrpiqemi t\u00eb themi se nuk ka dallim mes pun\u00ebtor\u00ebve dhe fshatar\u00ebve, por ata kan\u00eb interesa t\u00eb p\u00ebrbashk\u00ebta t\u00eb mjaftuesh\u00ebm p\u00ebr t\u2019u lidhur dhe p\u00ebr t\u00eb sfiduar rreshtimet politike t\u00eb zakonshme q\u00eb i mbajn\u00eb ata t\u00eb ndar\u00eb. K\u00ebshtu mendoj un\u00eb. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb modeli im p\u00ebr t\u00eb formuar nj\u00eb kund\u00ebr-bllok. Dhe ideja strategjike k\u00ebtu \u00ebsht\u00eb se un\u00eb jam me t\u00eb v\u00ebrtet\u00eb e interesuar p\u00ebr kund\u00ebr-pushtetin, jo p\u00ebr t\u00ebrheqjen, marr\u00ebveshjen, apo daljen n\u00eb nj\u00eb margjin\u00eb dhe nd\u00ebrtimin e nj\u00eb perspektive t\u00eb p\u00ebrbashk\u00ebt mbijetese apo di\u00e7ka t\u00eb till\u00eb. P\u00ebr mua, kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb romantike. Do t\u00eb ishte mir\u00eb n\u00ebse kjo parafiguron disa gj\u00ebra t\u00eb mira q\u00eb shoq\u00ebrit\u00eb socialiste mund t\u00eb duan t\u00eb p\u00ebrfshijn\u00eb, por nuk mendoj se ka ndonj\u00eb alternativ\u00eb ndaj p\u00ebrballjes me FMN-n\u00eb. Nuk mund t’u shp\u00ebtosh atyre, jan\u00eb shum\u00eb t\u00eb m\u00ebdhenj. Tentakulat e tyre jan\u00eb kudo dhe je shum\u00eb e kapur kur p\u00ebrpiqesh t\u00eb t\u00ebrhiqesh. Ata nuk t\u00eb japin shum\u00eb hap\u00ebsir\u00eb p\u00ebr t\u00eb transformuar v\u00ebrtet shoq\u00ebrin\u00eb. Duhet t\u00eb \u00e7montojm\u00eb FMN-n\u00eb. Duhet t\u00eb \u00e7montojm\u00eb Royal Shell, ExxonMobil, Google dhe Amazon. Pra, \u00e7\u00ebshtja k\u00ebtu \u00ebsht\u00eb p\u00ebrballja me ta p\u00ebrmes kund\u00ebr-fuqis\u00eb. N\u00eb teori, shumica d\u00ebrrmuese e rac\u00ebs njer\u00ebzore duhet t\u00eb ket\u00eb interes t\u00eb jet\u00eb n\u00eb an\u00ebn tjet\u00ebr t\u00eb asaj fuqie. Ata nuk po p\u00ebrfitojn\u00eb shum\u00eb prej saj. Edhe n\u00ebse i rrahin grat\u00eb e tyre her\u00eb pas here, ata do t\u00eb kishin nj\u00eb jet\u00eb shum\u00eb m\u00eb t\u00eb mir\u00eb n\u00ebse ne mund ta b\u00ebjm\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb ndryshim. K\u00ebshtu q\u00eb un\u00eb dua t\u00eb shoh shum\u00eb lloje t\u00eb ndryshme organizatash. Mendoj se partit\u00eb politike jan\u00eb t\u00eb r\u00ebnd\u00ebsishme. Dhe, edhe pse gj\u00ebrat shkuan keq n\u00eb fund, m\u00eb b\u00ebri shum\u00eb p\u00ebrshtypje q\u00eb n\u00eb fillim Podemos tentoi t\u00eb nd\u00ebrmarr\u00eb nj\u00eb l\u00ebvizje radikale t\u00eb veprimit t\u00eb drejtp\u00ebrdrejt\u00eb dhe ta shnd\u00ebrronte at\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb forc\u00eb m\u00eb t\u00eb p\u00ebrhershme dhe t\u00eb institucionalizuar, sepse alternativa q\u00eb kishim n\u00eb Shtetet e Bashkuara ishte parku i dyt\u00eb Zuccotti dhe vendet e tjera u pastruan. Ky ishte fundi. E dini, nuk kishim nj\u00eb organizat\u00eb. K\u00ebshtu q\u00eb Davos p\u00ebrfundoi si zhg\u00ebnjyes n\u00eb shum\u00eb m\u00ebnyra, por gjithsesi. Pra, un\u00eb jam e interesuar p\u00ebr formimin e partive. Un\u00eb jam e interesuar p\u00ebr sindikatat. Jam shum\u00eb e inkurajuar nga p\u00ebrpjekjet e reja t\u00eb sindikatave n\u00eb Shtetet e Bashkuara, n\u00eb sektor\u00eb q\u00eb nuk jan\u00eb organizuar kurr\u00eb m\u00eb par\u00eb, si shp\u00ebrndarja, shitja me pakic\u00eb, etj. Dhe kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb emocionuese. K\u00ebto p\u00ebrpjekje shpesh udh\u00ebhiqen nga t\u00eb rinjt\u00eb, njer\u00ebzit me ngjyr\u00eb dhe grat\u00eb. Pra, \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb fytyr\u00eb tjet\u00ebr e sindikalizmit. Tani, nuk e di \u00e7far\u00eb po ndodh diku tjet\u00ebr, por shikoni, kemi l\u00ebvizje indigjene shum\u00eb mbres\u00ebl\u00ebn\u00ebse n\u00eb shum\u00eb pjes\u00eb t\u00eb bot\u00ebs dhe ato jan\u00eb n\u00eb aleanc\u00eb me nj\u00eb lloj rryme urbane, moderniste dhe ekologjike. Dhe kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb aleanc\u00eb shum\u00eb interesante. Dua ta l\u00eb krejt\u00ebsisht t\u00eb hapur se si dhe n\u00eb \u00e7far\u00eb forme bashk\u00ebpunojn\u00eb k\u00ebto forca t\u00eb ndryshme. Sigurisht q\u00eb nuk jam n\u00eb favor t\u00eb nj\u00eb partie leniniste apo di\u00e7kaje t\u00eb till\u00eb, por mund t\u00eb ket\u00eb nj\u00eb moment kur do t\u00eb ishte e p\u00ebrshtatshme t\u00eb formohej nj\u00eb parti politike, shpresoj shum\u00eb demokratike, e drejtuar nga baza. E gjith\u00eb kjo nd\u00ebrlikohet edhe m\u00eb shum\u00eb nga fakti se nuk do t\u00eb ndodh\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb vend. Ne kemi nevoj\u00eb p\u00ebr nj\u00eb bllok nd\u00ebrkomb\u00ebtar, q\u00eb i b\u00ebn gj\u00ebrat shum\u00eb t\u00eb komplikuara. Prandaj them se nuk kam nj\u00eb ide t\u00eb qart\u00eb, por kam disa instinkte.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Po jemi gjithashtu d\u00ebshmitar\u00eb t\u00eb shfaqjes s\u00eb sindikatave t\u00eb strehimit p\u00ebr shkak t\u00eb d\u00ebbimeve dhe ka gjithashtu gj\u00ebra m\u00eb t\u00eb vogla, ato l\u00ebvizje t\u00eb reja q\u00eb Harvey thot\u00eb se po ndodhin n\u00eb sfer\u00ebn e realizimit t\u00eb vler\u00ebs, q\u00eb ka shtuar n\u00eb kapitalizmin ton\u00eb t\u00eb sh\u00ebrbimeve dhe financave. N\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb kapitaliz\u00ebm kanibal, duhet t\u00eb shtojm\u00eb dimensionin digjital: si po ndryshon gjith\u00e7ka n\u00eb nxjerrjen e vler\u00ebs, ku k\u00ebto korporata t\u00eb m\u00ebdha si Google, Amazon, Meta, marrin nga ne di\u00e7ka q\u00eb quhet t\u00eb dh\u00ebna, nj\u00eb burim i pakufizuar, i cili nuk mbaron ashtu si\u00e7 mbaron nafta, dhe p\u00ebr k\u00ebt\u00eb arsye shtrohet pyetja se si do t\u00eb krijojm\u00eb nj\u00eb kund\u00ebrfuqi ndaj k\u00ebsaj fuqie digjitale. Si do t\u00eb duken barrikadat digjitale?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Po, jam shum\u00eb e impresionuar nga gjith\u00eb puna shum\u00eb e mir\u00eb q\u00eb po b\u00ebhet mbi k\u00ebt\u00eb \u00e7\u00ebshtje. P\u00ebr shembull, libri i Shoshana Zuboff mbi Kapitalizmin e Mbik\u00ebqyrjes. Ai \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb p\u00ebrshkrim shum\u00eb i mir\u00eb i k\u00ebsaj teme. Ka disa gj\u00ebra m\u00eb t\u00eb reja q\u00eb jan\u00eb gjithashtu interesante. \u00cbsht\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb q\u00eb nuk kam punuar drejtp\u00ebrdrejt mbi k\u00ebt\u00eb, por nuk mendoj q\u00eb teknologjia vet\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb dimension i rreziksh\u00ebm dhe i keq. Mendoj se disa nga k\u00ebto teknologji mund t\u00eb p\u00ebrdoren, mund t\u00eb mobilizohen ndryshe p\u00ebr q\u00ebllime t\u00eb ndryshme, t\u00eb shk\u00ebputura nga akumulimi i fitimit dhe k\u00ebshtu me radh\u00eb. Por kjo k\u00ebrkon p\u00ebrs\u00ebri nj\u00eb lloj tjet\u00ebr transformimi social p\u00ebr ta marr\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb teknologji dhe p\u00ebr t\u00eb par\u00eb se \u00e7far\u00eb, n\u00ebse ka di\u00e7ka t\u00eb mir\u00eb, mund t\u00eb b\u00ebhet prej saj. Tani, ajo \u00ebsht\u00eb n\u00ebn kontrollin e atyre forcave korporative t\u00eb lidhura me format e reja t\u00eb shfryt\u00ebzimit. Shtetet e Bashkuara tani jan\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb moment v\u00ebrtet t\u00eb \u00e7uditsh\u00ebm krize politike. Kishim d\u00ebnimin e Trump-it dje (qershor 2023) p\u00ebr k\u00ebto akuza lidhur me dokumentet e klasifikuara. Kemi nj\u00eb p\u00ebrqindje t\u00eb r\u00ebnd\u00ebsishme prej 37% t\u00eb njer\u00ebzve q\u00eb besojn\u00eb se kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb gjueti shtrigash politike dhe ajo q\u00eb b\u00ebri ishte krejt\u00ebsisht e drejt\u00eb dhe duhet t\u00eb mbyllim Hillary Clinton-in. Pra, njer\u00ebzit n\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb vend duket sikur jetojn\u00eb n\u00eb dy universitete t\u00eb ndryshme me fakte alternative. Dhe k\u00ebshtu, mendoj se disa gj\u00ebra jan\u00eb t\u00eb implikuara k\u00ebtu. Nj\u00ebra \u00ebsht\u00eb deteriorimi i gjat\u00eb i standardeve t\u00eb jetes\u00ebs dhe cil\u00ebsis\u00eb s\u00eb jet\u00ebs, q\u00eb ka filluar me 4 vitet e neoliberalizmit, t\u00eb zhvendosjes s\u00eb prodhimit, krijimin e ekonomis\u00eb s\u00eb sh\u00ebrbimeve me paga t\u00eb ul\u00ebta n\u00eb vend t\u00eb ekonomis\u00eb s\u00eb pag\u00ebs m\u00eb t\u00eb lart\u00eb familjare t\u00eb prodhimit dhe k\u00ebshtu me radh\u00eb. Dhe pastaj roli i digjitalit \u00ebsht\u00eb shum\u00eb i r\u00ebnd\u00ebsish\u00ebm p\u00ebr t\u00eb treguar se ka nj\u00eb transformim struktural t\u00eb sheshit publik dhe ka filluar me radion e djatht\u00eb, pastaj me Fox News dhe ITV, pastaj Facebook e t\u00eb tjera. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb algoritmi q\u00eb u jep t\u00eb gjith\u00ebve sakt\u00ebsisht llojin e informacionit q\u00eb ata tashm\u00eb kan\u00eb p\u00ebrbrend\u00ebsuar. Pra, n\u00ebse e vendosni s\u00eb bashku k\u00ebt\u00eb deformim shum\u00eb strukturor t\u00eb sheshit publik, s\u00eb bashku me kushte t\u00eb p\u00ebrkeq\u00ebsuara jetese dhe pastaj shtoni nj\u00eb lloj geni t\u00eb keq si Trump, keni nj\u00eb stuhi t\u00eb p\u00ebrsosur. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb i gjithi problem i komunikimit politik i cili \u00ebsht\u00eb thelb\u00ebsor. \u00cbsht\u00eb kaq i cop\u00ebzuar dhe kaq problematik. Nganj\u00ebher\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb e v\u00ebrtet\u00eb q\u00eb idet\u00eb emancipatore qarkullojn\u00eb, por ato menj\u00ebher\u00eb ndezin nj\u00eb kund\u00ebrp\u00ebrgjigje histerike. Dhe jo vet\u00ebm histerike, por nj\u00eb kund\u00ebrp\u00ebrgjigje paranoike dhe t\u00eb \u00e7mendur. “Njer\u00ebzit q\u00eb punojn\u00eb me seksualitetin jan\u00eb duke i m\u00ebsuar f\u00ebmij\u00ebt tan\u00eb t\u00eb jen\u00eb queer”, ose “njer\u00ebzit q\u00eb punojn\u00eb p\u00ebr racizmin jan\u00eb duke i infiltruara shkollat tona me ide q\u00eb jan\u00eb krijuar p\u00ebr t\u2019i b\u00ebr\u00eb f\u00ebmij\u00ebt e bardh\u00eb t\u00eb ndihen fajtor\u00eb” dhe t\u00eb tjera ide t\u00eb tilla. Duket sikur jetojm\u00eb n\u00eb nj\u00eb azil t\u00eb \u00e7mendurish. Por p\u00ebrs\u00ebri, keni t\u00eb drejt\u00eb q\u00eb nuk kam punuar drejtp\u00ebrdrejt shum\u00eb mbi aspektin digjital.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Nuk mund t\u00eb b\u00ebsh gjith\u00e7ka (buz\u00ebqesh). Pyetja ime e fundit ka t\u00eb b\u00ebj\u00eb me socializmin. Si do t\u00eb ishte ndryshe nj\u00eb demokraci socialiste nga demokracia liberale, p\u00ebr sa i p\u00ebrket ekonomis\u00eb ose prodhimit, ekologjis\u00eb, rac\u00ebs, familjes ose seksit, \u00e7far\u00ebdo q\u00eb keni imagjinuar?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: S\u00eb pari, p\u00ebr mua, socializmi dhe demokracia jan\u00eb n\u00eb t\u00eb v\u00ebrtet\u00eb t\u00eb lidhura ngusht\u00eb. Disa njer\u00ebz kan\u00eb argumentuar q\u00eb kapitalizmi dhe demokracia shkojn\u00eb bashk\u00eb, por kjo nuk ka qen\u00eb kurr\u00eb shum\u00eb bind\u00ebse. Dua t\u00eb them se socializmi, n\u00eb pik\u00ebpamjen time, \u00ebsht\u00eb pik\u00ebrisht shkat\u00ebrrimi i kontrollit t\u00eb drejtp\u00ebrdrejt\u00eb demokratik q\u00eb nj\u00eb shtres\u00eb e vog\u00ebl e sip\u00ebrmarr\u00ebsve, investitor\u00ebve, aktor\u00ebve korporat\u00eb dhe aktor\u00ebve financiar\u00eb ushtrojn\u00eb mbi drejtimin themelor t\u00eb zhvillimit shoq\u00ebror. Ata kontrollojn\u00eb tepric\u00ebn shoq\u00ebrore. Ata vendosin ta apropriojn\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb private dhe e shp\u00ebrndajn\u00eb sipas kalkulimeve t\u00eb tyre se \u00e7far\u00eb do t\u00eb gjeneroj\u00eb fitime t\u00eb ardhshme. Me fjal\u00eb t\u00eb tjera, shqet\u00ebsimi i tyre i vet\u00ebm \u00ebsht\u00eb kthimi i ul\u00ebt i investimit. Dhe shumat e parave p\u00ebr t\u00eb cilat po flasim jan\u00eb kaq t\u00eb m\u00ebdha, ato q\u00eb p\u00ebrfaq\u00ebsojn\u00eb n\u00eb terma t\u00eb energjis\u00eb njer\u00ebzore, pun\u00ebs njer\u00ebzore, aft\u00ebsis\u00eb njer\u00ebzore jan\u00eb kaq kolosale sa q\u00eb esencialisht u kemi dh\u00ebn\u00eb atyre licenc\u00eb. P\u00ebr t\u00eb vendosur t\u00eb ardhmen, n\u00ebse ka nj\u00eb t\u00eb ardhme, sepse sinqerisht, ata po na \u00e7ojn\u00eb drejt shkat\u00ebrrimit t\u00eb planetit. Por, n\u00ebse duhet t\u00eb jap nj\u00eb pik\u00eb p\u00ebr at\u00eb q\u00eb mendoj se \u00ebsht\u00eb thelbi dhe shpirtit i socializmit, do t\u00eb thosha kontrolli demokratik mbi tepric\u00ebn shoq\u00ebrore. Ky \u00ebsht\u00eb thelbi i saj. Jam gjithashtu p\u00ebr ofrimin shum\u00eb bujar n\u00eb form\u00ebn e mallrave publike p\u00ebr t\u00eb k\u00ebnaqur nevojat thelb\u00ebsore. Por si e dini kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb e njohur tashm\u00eb nga socialdemokracia. Ajo q\u00eb \u00ebsht\u00eb specifike p\u00ebr socializmin \u00ebsht\u00eb kjo pyetje p\u00ebr riprodhimin e tepric\u00ebs, p\u00ebr pron\u00ebsin\u00eb ton\u00eb kolektive dhe ne duhet t\u00eb vendosim n\u00eb m\u00ebnyr\u00eb demokratike p\u00ebrmes disa mekanizmave, por mos m\u00eb pyetni se si. Duhet t\u00eb organizojm\u00eb nj\u00eb proces t\u00eb deliberat\u00ebs dhe p\u00ebrfaq\u00ebsimit dhe k\u00ebshtu me radh\u00eb p\u00ebrmes t\u00eb cilit vendosim se \u00e7far\u00eb t\u00eb b\u00ebjm\u00eb me t\u00eb ose madje n\u00ebse duam t\u00eb kemi kaq shum\u00eb tepric\u00eb. Ndoshta duam t\u00eb punojm\u00eb shum\u00eb m\u00eb pak. Nuk mendoj se kjo \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb mund\u00ebsi n\u00eb fillim, duke pasur parasysh sasin\u00eb masive t\u00eb nevojave njer\u00ebzore t\u00eb paplot\u00ebsuara n\u00eb t\u00eb gjith\u00eb globin. Por mendoj se duhet t\u00eb shohim d\u00ebmet masive q\u00eb kapitalizmi ka l\u00ebn\u00eb n\u00eb natyr\u00eb. Pavar\u00ebsisht gjith\u00eb buj\u00ebs p\u00ebr sa produktiv \u00ebsht\u00eb, n\u00eb fakt \u00ebsht\u00eb nj\u00eb makin\u00eb shkat\u00ebrrimi dhe na ka l\u00ebn\u00eb me shkat\u00ebrrim t\u00eb tmerrsh\u00ebm n\u00eb forma t\u00eb ndryshme. K\u00ebshtu q\u00eb ndoshta kjo ide e koh\u00ebs s\u00eb lir\u00eb, q\u00eb gjithmon\u00eb ka qen\u00eb nj\u00eb ideal socialist, nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb n\u00eb horizontin ton\u00eb t\u00eb menj\u00ebhersh\u00ebm, por n\u00eb fund, pse nuk duhet t\u00eb jet\u00eb nj\u00eb moment t\u00eb caktuar? Dhe k\u00ebshtu, menj\u00ebher\u00eb, mendoj se po flasim p\u00ebr zgjerimin masiv t\u00eb hap\u00ebsir\u00ebs. Cilat jan\u00eb \u00e7\u00ebshtjet q\u00eb jan\u00eb \u00e7\u00ebshtje p\u00ebr drejtimin politik demokratik, si\u00e7 jan\u00eb proceset esencialisht t\u00eb drejtuara nga tregu? Pra p\u00ebr mua, socializmi dhe demokracia shkojn\u00eb bashk\u00eb. Q\u00ebllimi nuk \u00ebsht\u00eb thjesht p\u00ebr t\u2019i b\u00ebr\u00eb m\u00eb demokratike, m\u00eb gjith\u00ebp\u00ebrfshir\u00ebse, m\u00eb t\u00eb barabarta ato hap\u00ebsira t\u00eb vogla q\u00eb konsiderohen si hap\u00ebsira demokratike. Q\u00ebllimi \u00ebsht\u00eb t\u00eb zgjerojm\u00eb shum\u00eb m\u00eb shum\u00eb k\u00ebto hap\u00ebsira.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: P\u00ebrmbyllje shum\u00eb e mir\u00eb. Shum\u00eb faleminderit, Nancy. Jam shum\u00eb mir\u00ebnjoh\u00ebse p\u00ebr koh\u00ebn tuaj.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Faleminderit shum\u00eb q\u00eb e b\u00ebt\u00eb k\u00ebt\u00eb intervist\u00eb. E di q\u00eb b\u00ebni shum\u00eb pun\u00eb e cila vler\u00ebsohet shum\u00eb, jam shum\u00eb mir\u00ebnjoh\u00ebse.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jule Goikoetxea: Shum\u00eb faleminderit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Nancy Fraser: Gjith\u00eb t\u00eb mirat.<\/p>\n\n\n\n